THE MUSIC IS SO STRONG

PART II

AG:     How did Jannick Top come to join then?

KB:     We had seen him in a club with Andre Ceccarelli (a very good drummer) in a band called TROC with Alex Ligertwood a singer and a very good keyboard player and then we knew that he was the bass player we needed. Jean-Pierre Lambert was in the band at that time and he said, "you must replace me".

AG:     Really, he was a bass player that appreciated that Top was out of this world.

KB:     So strong, and then, because Christian was leaving. I decided to talk to him by myself, he did not talk much except "Yes" with his southern accent.

AG:     Did he show much interest?

KB:     Yes, but he was impressed because he had just come from the south and then asked to play with one of the best drummers. The best thing for him was coming to us to join the band. He saw MAGMA many times in the south of France and he never even had the chance to talk to us. Yes he was very interested. So I talked to him and he told me later that he was so impressed that he could not talk. Even though he is very strong.

AG:     You must have been very surprised then that it was such an easy job to get him, you went and said "We'd like you to join" and he said, "I've wanted to join for a long time."

KB:     He said that later.

AG:     He introduced what most people think was MAGMA's finest hour - 'Mekanïk' - he very much contributed to that, the bass work on that is quite tremendous.

KB:     Yes, the way he thinks is he feels he is IN the bass when he plays it.

AG:     Did Christian have to say what music he wanted or did he say I want this general feeling.

KB:     No, it was the first time that Christian had nothing to say. Just showing him the song, singing and playing piano. Then, after a bit of writing, they'd play and that was it.

AG:     Jannick would just play along he would not have to be told.

KB:     It's a very great position - he is a freak, it's incredible. Playing the right things in the right time at the right place. As with Claude Engel, Bernard Paganotti kept the same sound and then he was doing it by himself. Bernard's sound is different from the Jannick sound but it started from the same concepts. MAGMA's bass is a necessary feeling at first.

AG:     So when Top left, did he leave to do other session work or was he unhappy with the group or what?

KB:     He was angry with Giorgio Gomelsky and as a strange person there were a lot of things, but it was impossible to stay together.

KB:     I can't say about that based on the numbers. It's a question of which LP I like. The one I like is the double Live because for me it is not only a souvenir but it has the most MAGMA sound. When I'm listening to the double, I feel MAGMA, very close. 'MDK' is different because it was realised under many different directions. Giorgio Gomelsky said "The sound is not strong enough, I can't hear Jannick, I can't hear Christian or the voices, it's too low for that piece of music."

AG:     I have not seen the 'Retrospektïw' albums yet, is a version of 'Mekanïk appearing?

KB:     Yes, 'Mekanïk' and 'Theusz Hamtaahk' on #1 and #11 (it's a double to be released in the summer) where I sing. But on this one, the new one ('Retrospektïw III') I was replaced. I was singing on stage but the voices are … That's one of the reasons of my

AG:     Oh! I see, who replaced you?

KB:     A very good singer / keyboard player - Guy Khalifa. He was playing in a band I used to play with called ODEURS. Guy Khalifa was the keyboard player, singer and composer.

AG:     Why was the decision made to remove your vocals?

KB:     I was in London for a report and then they decided to change the voices. So they asked me to come back to do it and I said "O.K. I'll come and do it". I was very angry, because Christian did not do it, it's only... I don't want to talk about our problems. Stella Vander wants to keep the band for her, and I'm tired of that kind of progress, it's so French! So 'I love the French, we're French'. I don't want to stay as a French ridiculous amateur you know! I'm tired of it!

AG:     That was something I was interested in; you brought it up there when you said about your vocals being taken off. On the 'Live' LPs Christian sang the 'Lïhns' track, was that the first thing he had actually sung on his own in MAGMA?

KB:     No, from the very start he was always singing and still is, but onstage it was difficult for him, because playing drums there are P.A. problems and sound problems. But he decided with 'Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh' to sing some pieces live. We can hear his voice on some pieces on 'MAGMA 2' and 'Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh'. But as a lead singer on the records, he started to do that on the 'Live' album, in a studio situation.

AG:     'Lïhns' was redone or touched up in the studio?

KB:     No, in the same place but without an audience, because the one we had done with the audience had a bad sound and rhythm and the little tunes had low noise, you know a very small label. We heard the audience very strong so the sound was bad, we decided to do it again.

AG:     So you re-recorded it at the Hall? L'Olympia?

KB:     No at the Taverne, it is another place, a kind of cellar.

AG:     So you went down there and repeated the whole set, recorded it and that was the version'?

KB:     Not the whole set, just 'Kobah', 'Lïhns' and 'Hhaï'. (Ed: Klaus pronounces 'Kobah'as 'Kobaïa).

AG:     How much then did Christian's vocals affect you? Did you find you were singing less and less?

KB:     He is doing more and more, he started singing part-time, he likes it and he sings very well. I was very angry at the time of the 'Attahk' record because Laurent Thibault was kind of half producer. I don't trust Laurent Thibault, and he doesn't trust me, so he decided to say to Christian "Why don't you sing by yourself?" It was very kind of him! Actually, it's nice, because he sings very well. So I only sang background vocals and I was very sad.

AG:     You did not do any lead vocals at all on 'Attahk'?

KB:     Just a few. It was a question of time for Christian, but Laurent was very happy.

AG:     'Attahk' came out with markings all over the cover like "MAGMA are back on a new set and new cycle" or "MAGMA are back in force again" And then suddenly nothing. What happened? You did a lot of touring but recording wise, nothing.

KB:     I don't think it was a step ahead. For me in the sense of priority or even in the sense of music, it was a step backwards.

AG:     What musically? The actual music on the album?

KB:     The sort of concept, because it was more improvised and not enough in the way Christian used to do it.

AG:     The instrumentalists featured on the album were fairly new except for Benoît.

KB:     Yes, that is the best part of the album, Benoît's work on it is very strong.

AG:     He has been a great asset over the years. When did he join, for the 'Live' album?

KB:     Yes at the end of the 'Live' period he replaced a very good keyboard player but crazy guy, Jean-Pol Asseline. He really is crazy, mad, sick! It's a shame, he's a very kind person and intelligent and as a keyboard player he's enormous. Patrick Gauthier had replaced him after the 'Live' album. Benoît's was very young when I met him at Christian's place. He was with a drummer who wanted to practise with Christian as a teacher. He was a little seventeen year old and to show how the drummer played they decided to play a MAGMA tune on Christian's piano. He knew everything from the start to the end perfectly so some years later when he was nineteen or twenty, Michel Graillier had left and the job became open so we decided to ask him to try with us, he was a better player then.

AG:     So Benoît joined like Patrick Gauthier joined in the latter part of 1975. It was the first time you had used electronic keyboards in MAGMA as far as I can see. Synthesizers and things like that had never been used much, or was it just not noticeable?

KB:     No, with Michel Graillier and Gèrard Bikialo we used a Yamaha Organ, which is a kind of synthesizer, and Didier Lockwood played something, not on the album only onstage. Yes so in fact we started on stage with special parts for Patrick and Benoît. Patrick was a Moog player, Benoît was an ARP player, they were fighting for styles and sounds and that was very good.

AG:     Right, around that time (certainly in concert) the keyboards were much more to the fore. They were replacing the traditional horns and violin.

KB:     The violin came at the same time, so it was playing with equal importance.

AG:     By the time Gauthier joined the violin had gone had it not'?

KB:     Patrick was playing at the same time as Didier. The keyboard player at first was his brother Francis, but we decided Francis was not really ready or in the same spirit as us, so Benoît came and then Jean-Pol Asseline. But I think Michel Graillier had left but his equipment was still there so Jean-Pol was playing on Michel's keyboard at the Chateau.

AG:     So the electronic keyboards were used for quite a while before they appeared on record.

KB:     We were the first to use the Fender electric piano in France, with Francois Cahen, before we had a Wurlitzer.

AG:     François Cahen had a marvellous sound a distinctive style on the Fender; his solo piano albums are selling quite well. In Antoine De Caunes book you mention you were going to co-produce the music for the film Dune.

KB:     Not co-produce, I was working on it as an artist, I was a fan of the comic strip style of drawing. I was often invited to artists parties and I met the film producer and I was asked to make some original music for the film it would have one of my pieces and one by HENRY COW and another track by a German synthesizer band and the fourth track was to be classical. The project started in Paris very slowly without money, but in six months they spent a lot of money but did not find enough to do the movie.

AG:     How far did it get, did it just get to the planning stages?

KB:     The money was really just enough to start production. They had done a lot, but not enough. So they sold all the work to the American company that made Star Wars and then Alien. Everybody who worked on the project was still employed on Dune, except us because we had not actually produced the music. We had decided to wait for the first rushes. I have heard that the producer has decided to stop the Dune project again.

AG:     Frank Herbert's book is an incredible work to try to capture on film. Anyway, getting back to the 'Üdü Wüdü' album, was all of it recorded in 1976 or was some of the album old tracks or new recordings of old tracks?

KB:     It was all made in the same session period. It was not really new material we had played it onstage but the band was very undecided about this version. It was nice.

AG:     There were various members on various tracks, was Jannick asked to join for 'Üdü Wüdü' or did he just appear?

KB:     Both, he was not in the band any more but we decided to record 'De Futura' with Jannick because we had played it onstage for a year with him. We decided to put it on the record because it is a good tune.

AG:     You still had Paganotti though? He was on part of the LP, was it a conscious decision not to use him for the 'De Futura' track?

KB:     Yes, Bernard was in time band at that time but it was better to use the original bass played by the composer. So it was kind of us to ask him.

AG:     Did Jannick Top compose it in MAGMA or was it a track he had that MAGMA adapted for themselves?

KB:     He was in the band when he composed it, but he decided to write it for a big orchestra. He played 'De Futura' with another band with aggression but another kind of people. They only played once, at the Nancy festival, the band was called the UTOPIC SPORADIC ORCHESTRA. "UTOPIC" because of Giorgio Gomelsky and that is the reason why I was not there, because I was really fighting against Giorgio for six months.

AG:     What role did Christian play on the 'Üdü Wüdü' album? Was he still the overlord of everything; because there are lots of different things happening on that album?

KB:     No, Bernard Paganotti had written all the parts, even the drum parts of his tune 'Weidorje'. I wrote the lyrics and I helped him to put it together and I found the title and did the drawings for it. We were playing 'De Futura' on stage, developing it for a long time because it is a good tune; it is very strong.

AG:     So Jannick had written that actually in MAGMA and then he left but MAGMA continued to use it?

KB:     That was the second time he was in the band, because Christian had decided to stop the Paganotti version and then to try it again with Jannick because he thought it was impossible to do better than Jannick. So he asked Jannick to come and do it.

AG:     Did he then ask Jannick to stay on after the LP to continue playing in MAGMA?

KB:     No no, he was in the band touring with us when 'Üdü Wüdü' was recorded.

AG:     Oh! Because 'Üdü Wüdü' seems to come across as an LP that was recorded when no real band was in existence. When MAGMA did not actually exist as a touring outfit.

KB:     It was at the very start of it.

AG:     Because on subsequent tours you added Clement Bailly as the drummer.

KB:     No, that was after; when Jannick had left again we decided to rebuild another band. So we had a second drummer, Guy Delacroix as the bass player, Jean De Antoni on guitar and Benoît Widemann again. Because that was the band, which besides Florence Bertaux, the drummer, bass player, keyboard player and guitar player were all in ALAN STIVELL's band. So we decided to bring the whole lot into MAGMA. We tried it because we had got a lot of dates and we were in a hurry, we were rehearsing and they all knew each other.

AG:     When Bernard went off to form WEIDORJE to what extent were you involved in that? I mean I know you designed the cover for his album.

KB:     I had already decided to produce it and sing on it but they talked together and decided to sing by themselves because they thought I was in MAGMA. They were right because it was better for them to play by themselves, but I was very sad because I had known the tune. I wrote some lyrics but they did not use them on the record. You see 'Attahk' was realised and when on the last day we listened to the master tape, WEIDORJE came in the same studio, so we listened to the master tape with WEIDORJE in the studio. They had just started to record their album.

AG:     When, in 1977 you had the line-up with Guy and Clement, from tapes I have heard and reports I have read, it seems to mark a fairly radical departure for you on stage. You started to perform on stage in a sense, to put a lot more into your image.

KB:     Yes we started to change our image, I decided to groove, because I felt the music was not enough. The French people wanted to be able to enjoy themselves, dancing and so on. So I decided to perform.

AG:     Was this largely because MAGMA was at that time getting an increasing following and you felt you owed the fans more than just standing there singing, you felt the live experience had to be there?

KB:     Yes it was something very strange. From 1968 we had only seen young people at our gigs. But if they were always young they were not, the same people all the time, so it was possible to change. We thought: "where are the old fans, at home, watching TV?" If the old MAGMA fans were coming to see us it would be a lot of people. So we changed it. We were their band but from twenty-five onwards they stopped coming.

AG:     In Britain that does not happen a great deal, a band tends to keep it's following in Britain. The more conventional bands - like you can almost guess how long the band has been going by looking at the age of the audiences. Because very often a band that has been going a long time does not draw too many new fans in, certainly in the rock scene. At this time you were also introducing new material, previously unreleased things on stage. One marvellous piece was 'Morrison in the storm' which was homage to Jim Morrison on behalf of Christian.

KB:     He never listened to much of the DOORS, he only knew one tune, 'Riders on the storm'. Which is very very good, he was very impressed by that. I think he listened to it at my home because I have all their records and then we decided to get in this kind of groove. The tune was very different to the DOORS tune.

AG:     Was it just written for stage performance?

KB:     Well, always they are for stage and recordings, but we have got a lot of problems with the record companies.

AG:     Do you record a lot of your concerts?

KB:     Yes, I have a lot of tapes; I have got a hundred or so cassettes. We used to record all the concerts from the '73 to the '76 bands.

AG:     Is it true that you were doing rock'n'roll stuff in the middle of various MAGMA tunes; in the book it says you played 'Long Tall Sally'.

KB:     NO! Not with MAGMA. We played things that seemed like a rock'n'roll tune to the MAGMA fan but not actually 'Long Tall Sally'.

AG:     Oh I'm with you; I don't think the book comes across particularly well with that. Antoine seems to write as if you were actually singing those onstage, which I thought was odd, I'm glad I cleared that up. It must be my lousy translating of the French actually. The 'Inedits' album, was that released with the approval of the group?

KB:     We needed the money at this period, somebody else had some original tapes which were really good tapes. And then I stupidly gave some cassettes and tapes for money. And then he asked me to realise the covers, one day I decided to use some nice pictures I had got and wrote something to put in and then I gave it to the guy, but that's all.

AG:     Ah, that was not wise. He wanted the tapes with a view to making the album obviously. You were selling him the tapes knowing that an album was going to come from it.

KB:     Yes. I am not very proud of that. It was not supposed to be released as a record, just documents. It featured line-ups that had not appeared on record before and the music was very interesting. I was listening to the 'Sowiloï' tape a lot, so for me I think it was necessary to do it, but I am not very proud of the way it was done. It could have had some good colour covers. I regret doing it because it was possible to do it well.

AG:     But the LP has largely been forgotten about now anyway, I mean it was on Tapioca. Just out of interest, have you ever had any contacts with GONG?

KB:     Not really, not close, we were on tour together and now the crew we have is the crew that was with GONG. Bernard Szajner was doing the lasers with them and then I met him and asked him to do some laser work for us. He worked with us for two years. He was not really musical, but he has very nice concepts, he is very intelligent.

AG:     Yes, he said in an interview that the music came later. You were on his 'Visions of Dune' album. Tell me about 'Ourgon and Gorgo'.

KB:     On the album they were played by Guy Delacroix, the original concept was of two bassists, one nice and one not. Then it was realised on stage with Jean-Luc Chevalier as Gorgo and Michel Hervé as Ourgon. Benoît Widemann was the keyboard player on the 'Attahk' album but onstage it was Andre Hervé. Andre and Michel came from a band called ZOU (previously ZOO).

AG:     Did Christian at that time have a concept or a story, or was the Ourgon and Gorgo thing the main part'?

KB:     We thought a lot about the concept, much more than the music. We decided to go a step ahead, we decided to change clothing from black to red (white dresses for the girls) and to include some choreography and things like that, which resulted in a good show.

AG:     You have done a lot of touring with that band in the last couple of years haven't you, a huge number of concerts.

KB:     That is part of the reason why I am leaving, I am not tired of touring but I'm tired of touring for nothing. Not even in the sense of money really, the money from the tours is not good, we don't sell more records as a result of concerts. We are not more famous.

AG:     No, you find that in France that is not happening, you are touring but you are not getting that many new fans to the music. The people who already buy the records are the people who are going to continue buying the records.

KB:     I don't know what is happening but it seems to me like the same story for years and years. I don't want that. So I am tired of France and the French concept of the ridiculous amateur, really the un-professionalism of MAGMA from the music to the organisation, many things must be professional but they are not.  

AG:     But there are not enough of those people around are there?

KB:     Yes, we were looking for agents and road crew and musicians and a record company, but we did not find them. I know it is possible to find them but I don't have the time to do it. I have many things to do, I am starting to do new things in France writing articles because I know my subject, but it does not change my life. If I want to stop, I will stop tomorrow, or yesterday! I am preparing myself to go to the United States to produce LPs, I have started to produce music but there is no market. I even tried to do something very funny, I presented a tape to a record company in France and in the middle of some things I had produced I put the CRUSADERS. And the record company said there was no market for it! So I decided it was no joke for me, I was not very happy about it so I decided to stop. I have produced some things for other people where I sing a bit and that is all.

AG:     You have done a few things outside MAGMA, for example the Francois Bréant 'Voyeur Extra-lucide' album track, which I told him would make a marvellous single.

KB:     I have not got a copy of that; I will have to buy it. I don't have all MAGMA's records, I have all thealbums though.

AG:     What do you actually listen to; do you have a big collection?

KB:     I went to California last summer because I was impressed by the Californian music, Doobie Brothers, Toto, Steely Dan. And ZZ-TOP, they are not Californian but I think the same feel of American rock'n'roll. And I used to listen to the rhythm'n'blues sound and soul music and things like that and a lot of very eclectic Jazz. I am now very close to the Doobie Brothers, I went to their homes and I saw them yesterday in their hotel in Paris. And I like to contact American or English musicians, John Wetton is a friend of mine, he is producing an LP in France, singing and playing bass. I have met WEATHER REPORT and have pictures of the band.

AG:     Did Francois Bréant approach you and tell you what he would like you to do?

KB:     Yes, I have known him for a long time; he is a very kind person.

AG:     Then you went on to do Ramon Pipin's ODEURS album. It must have been quite a departure for you.

KB:     Have you heard about the Au bonheur des dames album? It was a band a little bit like SHA NA NA; they have had hits. It's a kind of rock'n'roll revival with jokes, and the guitar player, Ramon Pipimi was a MAGMA fan from the beginning. I had seen him many times in the halls with his wooden leg, so I recognised him easily but I did not know he was a guitar player. One day I met him in the street and he said "Come and see us we have built a studio called Ramses and it is a very close by". So one day I went and they were doing the first session for their first LP, they were looking for a backing vocalist so I decided to do it for free, as a friend. So I was on the first ODEURS album in the chorus. Then they decided to make a big TV show and on just one occasion they put together some musicians from the first LP to form a band. About thirty of us practised for that, it was a large part of MAGMA, I was very happy. On stage it was a very visual thing. I don't like their first two LPs but we are now finishing the third, which is more like something between the TUBES and ZAPPA and the Rocky Horror Show. I am really enjoying doing this album, because at first I was just a guest to sing in the background, but later they gave me a song to sing. Then they asked me to join the band. The choir was Stella Vander and Liza so we decided to do it together with a lot of MAGMA musicians. The third album should be issued in a month or two, and then ODEURS are doing a big concert at L'Olympia in June.

AG:     I'd like to come over for that, and the concert that Didier Lockwood is doing later on this month with Christian, Jannick and others.

KB:     It was two months ago; I recorded it.

AG:     Oh, it's been on, because in Best magazine, it is scheduled for this month in Paris?

KB:     I don't know, I have lost contact with them, I was so angry. They have started to go on stage again and I haven't seen them. Not because of Christian himself. I am angry because it is so bad for him, it's a shame after ten or twelve years to do that, it's terrible.

AG:     Well I have almost come to the end of my questions. One point I have always been interested in is that MAGMA have always had a lot of musicians from Jazz backgrounds like Yochk'o Seffer, Didier Lockwood, Benoît Widemann recording all their solo stuff. How much of an influence do you think MAGMA has had on those musicians? Do you think they and you would be doing what you are doing now if MAGMA had not existed?

KB:     Well it would be impossible, MAGMA was too important to every musician in Paris not just in the sense of music but he helped us to create something because Vander is so strong. And I felt it was never in the audience because the music that the other musicians played was so different to the music of MAGMA. That's different to sounds or things like that, so that's music. Before MAGMA there was no audience, ergo no musicians. After, there were sonic musicians and they called it Jazz-Rock. But that was jazz-rock before Jazz-Rock existed.

AG:     Obviously I can't ask him, but for Christian is MAGMA entirely his life, he has never really played with anyone else.

KB:     No, not really apart from the new Patrick Gauthier LP which Patrick asked him to do. But you know MAGMA is Christian and Christian is MAGMA. So he does not need to do anything else and he can't because if Christian does not know the music he can't make a decision, so it takes hours and hours because he doesn't understand how to do it, because it is another universe for him. He can do it technically, but if there is no spirit he can't, we tried it many times but...

KB:     MAGMA #21 ! It's MAGMA #22 now, the new line-up. Maria ? Ah yes, Popkiewicz she's gone. MAGMA Re-signed to Philips in 1980? No, that's not true. We were supposed to re-sign.

AG:     That was from a report in Best magazine about the time of time Retrospektïw concerts.

KB:     Ah what's this? An album with Christian and René Garber? That was not MAGMA.

AG:     Yes again that is from a French music magazine report that Christian had recorded an album with René Garber for release, what was that then?

KB:     Yes but it was not on record and it was not Christian and René, just Christian.

AG:     Whatever happened to it?

KB:     I don't know. He must have lost it. So this is wrong.

AG:     Because I was just going to publish this tree as a supplement to the Faceout magazine.

KB:     No we have not toured with Top and Paganotti together. The 'Üdü Wüdü' line-up did not actually tour. Ourgon and Gorgo on the album were both Guy Delacroix. Jean-Luc Chevalier was Gorgo on the tour but did not play on the album.

AG:     Because you had the concept of the two basses on the album, the earth bass and the air bass, but Guy Delacroix played all the parts on the album.

KB:     That's right...I was at art school from 1964.

AG:     Did you get any qualifications?

KB:     Yes, I am an art teacher.

AG:     Do you wish you had devoted more to art than to music?

KB:     At first, that was my first job, but I started music at the same time but music was stronger. I was doing a lot of work and concerts at night.

AG:     I know you have done a marvellous portrait of Christian Vander, you even got the eyes perfect.

KB:     MAGMA #22 should include the two horn players from WEIDORJE, Alain and Yvon Guillard, I think Christian was a little surprised at my departure and so he decided to have some fresh air.

AG:     How did the Retrospektï? concerts come about, was it Christian's idea?

KB:     It's a long story; we decided to do it before GONG did theirs. That was our idea and they copied it, because they were not touring a lot, so we waited until we had a good enough band to do it and it happened last June. But it was planned one and a half years before. And we planned too, to go to the United States for a short visit as soon as we had a proper band we would tour again and then do the Retrospektïw. But the tour was so badly organised, I decided not to do it. They asked me to do the Retrospektïw concerts for three weeks and finally I agreed but I regret it, I did it for the people and it was very emotional so I don't regret all of it, but it was badly organised. So afterwards I decided to stop. Christian did too, but recently he decided to tour again.

AG:     Because there was originally a tour scheduled for Germany, Italy and Scandinavia last summer, that never happened?

KB:     No, because of the bad organisation. It's a long story; I don't want to say any more but that will be MAGMA's death, the organisation. The music is so strong that this is stupid.

Andy's interview terminated after exactly two hours at that point when his tapes ran out. Thank you immensely to Klaus for granting us this rare insight into the story of MAGMA in English.