Murnau and Art Zoyd

A Communion Between Two Worlds

Queen Elizabeth Hall, South Bank Centre, London 24-11-94

RC

RC:     Hello. We are Art Zoyd, the two composers are Gerard and Thierry. Myself, I am the artistic director - I would say the "third man" in fact. There are also two musicians who will appear during the performance (Patricia Dallio and Daniel Denis). The people from the South Bank asked us to give you some explanation about our work, so we think it would be interesting to speak about this project which we began in 1988, basically Art Zoyd is a musical group from the seventies, but we are very interested by music and all sorts of arts like Visual arts, ballets, theatre, drama and also film. We were hoping to do this kind of project ten or twelve years ago when we received the tapes from other composers like the "Metropolis" film by Fritz Lang and we watched them along with the music of Art Zoyd and it gave us the idea that it was possible and interesting to do it. But we decided not to take "Metropolis" but to do the German film "Nosferatu" instead (this was in 1988). To choose this film we watched about two hundred different silent films and the two choices we made were "Nosferatu" and "Faust". "Nosferatu" was the earlier work of Murnau, so we said it would be interesting to begin with "Nosferatu" and maybe make "Faust" later. And in fact that's what we did, so tonight you will be able to have the work of Art Zoyd with this film by Murnau.

Now I will ask the composers to give a description of how they work and their feelings about that film.

GH:     "I can't talk in English." (whispered - Ed.)

TZ:     "Nor me." (audience laughs - Ed.)

RC:     I am sorry, we say that music is universal and of course Gerard and Thierry are basically universal about music but not really by language it seems, so maybe I will translate for them and of course this will permit me to say whatever I want... not really, but let's see. (audience laughs - Ed.) Gerard could you tell us something?

GH:     "That is a very good question." (whispered - Ed.)

RC:     Even if it is in French, it is interesting to have the sound of your voice.

TZ:     "It's the usual moan for composers to say that it is difficult to talk about their music, I think that for a long while we have our heads full of images, but with those images come questions. We have little experiences from all sides, we see videos; a friend of mine has a CD-i for example, which has films (or videos) like Calvert's "Des Fin d'Universitaire" which has a summary of "Metropolis" the Fritz Lang film. Also diverse music like that of Pierre Henry, Popol Vuh, Vangelis and Art Zoyd. And the results of these influences on our own feelings are a sacrament based on watching many films. So it is impossible to explain without the aid of thirty or forty films... sorry."

RC:     So basically Thierry is talking about the genesis of the work but what can you say about "Faust"?

GH:     "To make a comparison with "Nosferatu" it was the first music that Art Zoyd had made for silent movie and we played that in concert, and now "Faust". In fact we decided to be more independent from the film and use the film as a liberator for the music that we had made for "Nosferatu"."

RC:     In fact I will maybe add some information I get from them so that we can express it quicker; you know there are often two ways of working with silent film. One way you make an illustration where you are completely dependent on the film and the other way is to crush the film, and when you make live music it is very easy to destroy the sense of the film. So the idea was to be between these two different methods, not to be completely dependent, not to be realistic; just illustration. But also to work like a sort of a symphony with two lines, a sort of counterpoint between the drama and the live, the internal music of the film and the Art Zoyd music. So more a sort of companion and not only as the slave or the master. Basically this was the main will of Art Zoyd for that project.

GH:     "We see our own music for the "Faust" project as the projection of our feelings."

TZ:     "Also, this is an occasion to explore more and more technology and equipment to permit us to enlarge the shape of sound and music."

RC:     You know with the film it's sort of like sport, for instance it is not possible to make only written music with a film. For instance if the fun was cut, and this could happen today, if the music is completely written for a symphony orchestra you will have a big problem. So the idea was to make a real, completely live music using programmed events which permit us to react very quickly, but this means that all the music is completely live, there is no tape because you can imagine if the film stopped, the tape would continue and it might be comical, but not really the will of the musicians. For instance critics from our performance in New York were very surprised that the sound was like a symphony orchestra. But in fact I would say that what is more interesting is not only to sound like an orchestra but also to be able to have - for just a quarter of second - a sound like strings and one second later to have a very techno-rock music or very hard or soft in just a few minutes and this is completely live, it must be said and we insist.

Would you like to ask some questions? We are not used to having this sort of talk before a show. I think you can see that this is our first time, you know Gerard and Thierry are more like actors they prefer to do instead of thinking, sometimes they think also....

Q:     I know that for "Metropolis" that a symphony orchestra score already existed. Is there any piece that still exists for "Faust" or was there anything for "Nosferatu" that you used as a basic element? Sometimes there are piano scores that were used during the performance. Perhaps some themes you used for certain scenes?

RC:     Talking about the original music, with silent films in the twenties and thirties there were often two versions. There would be a version for the premiere and maybe the first two weeks, which might have been with a chamber orchestra, but this would be in Berlin and after that it would just be performed with a pianist. Dr. Ehrmann made the original music but anyway Murnau was not pleased by this music. But he didn't care because when the film was shot and edited, Murnau as any director had no power over these musical additions. You are probably a fan of silent films and know that already, but maybe when the film was sent to different countries it was a not a big film and was distributed on many small reels so it was very easy for the producer to take a scene from here and a scene from there. I think that now a lot of people who like silent films are very cautious to have the original music, but in fact at the time of Murnau they did not care about that. We wanted to make new music but maybe far, far away from the previous will of the producer or even the director.

Q:     What is the relationship between the film and your music? Were the films originally designed to have a musical complement or is this something that has developed and got more sophisticated as time has gone by?

RC:     As I said before, at the time of Murnau they did not care so much about that, basically Murnau was very interested by sound, and it is a pity that he died in 1931 because we have some letters from him saying that he was very interested by the new technology of sound but unfortunately he died too soon, but it has to be said the music was not important for most of the directors of silent films, they didn't care about sound, they didn't care about music mainly it was the producer who asked for it. For instance Eisenstein was very lucky to have Prokofiev to work with him and there are a few examples like that. So what we did with "Faust" is a mix between illustration and... but I would say it is two worlds working together, and as I said before it was a counterpoint, we have a name for it in France - redondant, which means when the image means something you do the music exactly in that sense and this is often very bad because you reinforce the sense and it is much better to play with the sense. Not to cut it, not to destroy the meaning of the image, but to play with it and this is really what we want to do.

Q:     Can you explain in what way is your approach different to any modern composer for a film now, you know - underplay and not reinforce too much; isn't that a precept for any film composer?

RC:     This should be asked to the other composers, I have seen "Faust" and "Nosferatu" made by other composers and sometimes it was very nice, very clever but sometimes it was bullshit. But you know it's a question of taste. One thing is sure we have more freedom with a silent film, because when you make music for a modern film you have dialogue - even in that case you can change the music and change the sense of the film. It can be very hard or very relaxed. So we try not to be so strict, also I am pretty sure that the composers do not think we have made the ultimate or optimum version of the film. One thing is sure it is an encounter between the world of Murnau and the world of Art Zoyd. We can say that for sure, but for the rest we have to be very careful.

Q:     Do you also compose for "sound" films?

RC:     No not for modern films; not yet. We have been asked by a French director to make the music for his film, but it will be shot next year. We have worked for videos and actually we are working with the Murnau family who have asked us to make the official music for "Faust" and "Nosferatu" which will mean that in about six months when you see these films on television it will be with the music of Art Zoyd. For us this is very important, it is a sort of recognition of our work and it will exist perhaps for the next twenty years. We are not eternally certainly, but in about twenty years maybe they will ask some other composer to make the new official sound-tracks. We are only members of a big file. But anyway, for now it is us.

Q:     You were saying earlier about trying to avoid responding in the obvious way to a melodramatic moment with a loud noise, is it possible to find musical equivalents for Murnau's very striking visual style or even go beyond that and find musical structures that open it out?

RC:     I will give you an example concerning "Nosferatu2. In that film there is a part towards the end (the plague scene) where normally people would make very dramatic music, but if you do that you make a sort of overacting work so that you have no reserve, no power for the end of the film. So we decided at the time of the plague to use a sort of Zen Music, very calm music because the image was enough, because it was stupid to be very dramatic. And to do that permitted us to be stronger for the end of the film and that means that we combined the internal story of the film and the drama of the music.

Q:     I ask as a listener to Art Zoyd's music (rather than a viewer) how do you feel, with it being a German director, about the intrinsic sense of French progressive music being amalgamated? You have sort of tagged along on the Zeuhl Motif.

RC:     Well I would say we don't think of ourselves as a French style of group, Thierry's surname is ZABOITZEFF, he comes from the north of Russia near Siberia and Gerard has a very French name but in fact there is no other HOURBETTE in France! I don't think we are enamoured to a French composer, I am pretty sure about that. We don't have a French style. Because you speak about the French style for German films. I think Art Zoyd is not based on a nationalistic idea - even though we speak only French. (Laughs).

Q:     When you performed "Nosferatu" a couple of years ago, the Canary Wharf concert was cancelled, do you still plan to perform it in the future?

RC:     You are very well informed; I am really very surprised. Yes we were hoping to make a very big open-air concert of "Nosferatu2 at Canary Wharf and just a few weeks before the performance there was the bankruptcy that you know about. We had a beautiful agreement, quite well made, when I showed it to Peter Gabriel's lawyer in Bath, he said "Oh what a wonderful agreement, but there are thousands of other accounts to be settled before yours, so maybe in twenty-five years..." So anyway, now it is much easier to joke about that but you can imagine that for us it was a big disaster. I think the project would have been very interesting. The screen would of course have been much bigger than the one here. Here it is not bad for a small place, but we planned to do that concert for about two thousand people. It would have been more than the one we did in the main square of Stockholm that was for thirty thousand people. For this we used the complete building and put the musicians on the roof. So normally Canary Wharf would have been something like that. But we think there are some other possibilities to present "Nosferatu" in London in a few days, I am pretty sure you will be informed. Because if you knew about the cancellation you will know when we play. (Don't bet on it - Ed.)

Q:     What is the compatibility between the music of Art Zoyd and the film itself?

RC:     First we chose it, as I said we watched about two hundred films and if we chose "Nosferatu" and "Faust" it was really because we seem to be in phase with Murnau. For us he is certainly the best filmmaker so it was very natural to work with Murnau. And it became even more natural during the work, because before it was just an impression and now Gerard and Thierry have seen the film one thousand times. If you don't have the feeling of community (rather than compatibility) it would not be possible to do "Nosferatu" and of course five years later "Faust".

Q:     Could you expand on that?

RC:     It would be more interesting to discuss this after you have seen the show, but basically "Faust" goes to the essential, it is very dynamic and a very unknown method of cinema. The quality of editing and Murnau was one of the first directors to use travelling artistically. But one thing is certain; Gerard and Thierry chose to do "Nosferatu" first because "Faust" is a more mature work and they felt it was much better to do "Faust" after they had the experience of "Nosferatu" and there is five years between the works for the composers and it was the same for Murnau and it is the more mature work of Art Zoyd with the more mature film of Murnau.

Q:     You play with the meanings of the film. Is your music in competition with the film?

RC:     We are not in competition; we play with the film. Like a team, in fact it is quite an interesting team because Murnau is not here, but it is really like a team, it is not competition with the film, it's nothing like that. We are not commenting on the film we are communing with it.

Q:     Do you think this is the ideal staging for this sort of event, or if you could, would you prefer something like an opera house?

RC:     You speak about the optimum space it would be better to have a bigger screen for technical reasons, and the technical crew here are very good. But it is just the basic problem of length and so on. But the idea to make this as a triptychon came because we have seen a lot of silent films with music, with the musicians in front and the screen above them. But when you have the image from the projector, the lights on the musicians cause interference and sometimes you see the musician in beautiful white shirts with beautiful colours shining on them but half of the screen becomes red and half is green. So we chose this stage set-up with the screen in the centre and the musicians on the sides. But of course as I said in Stockholm we used a complete building with the musicians on the top so we adapt to the different places. We have played more than one hundred times with this configuration and it permits us to have more light on the musicians without interfering with the screen; no I think it is quite OK.

Q:     What inspired you most from the film "Faust", what was the image in your mind?

GH:     "First of all I think about the images of the film, but to be honest, to make the right job for that you have to clear out these different images, create a vacuum to concentrate on the music for the film if you do not have this fixed idea it could be a failure."

Q:     In what way do you mean "a failure"?

RC:     He said that in fact the project would be awful, or would not be interesting. It is a mix of images coming from the film and also to be able to avoid everything sometimes.

TZ:     "The music has its own logic as well."

RC:     So it is a combination of these three directions./p

GH:     "It is very difficult to make film music without your own image without falling into desperation."

RC:     It would be a failure, if you don't have your own image, if you don't grasp the sense of the film. It is a combination of these three abstracts

Q:     What was your personal image?

GH:     "The telephone number..." (Laughs)

RC:     You really want to know that, take care!

GH:     "I can't say".

TZ:     "The first phase is inspiration, based on examining the film. The second phase is abstraction to be apart from the film to determine your own logic and the third phase would be to make a sort of distillation of the music according to the different sequences of the film. So it is a combination of inspiration, abstraction and technology, something like that."

RC:     Thank you very much.